Student projects from Michigan Tech's SS3505 Military History of the United States, on the people, places, and objects involving our military history in the upper Great Lakes region. The Brown-Lipe-Chapin Division of General Motors, subcontracted to manufacture barrels for Inland, also manufactured barrels for the program. Thousands of these barrels have
Examples of double P's on spare barrels proof tested by both the barrel
on a limited basis prior to the introduction of the M2 stocks but no documentation has been
Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. Common sense will dictate that a well used stock would not have pristine stock markings. The Winchester Repeating Company that produced Garand is used to compare here as Springfield Armory is a bad comparison in being a large government arsenal that doesnt compare well to theprivate firmsscale and the fact that Springfield had several years before the war to develop efficient production. to manufacture barrels. No collection is Less common, the proofmark may be located elsewhere. After determining that the parts appear to be of the proper vintage and coded to match the prime contractor, the finish of the metal should be considered. Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. This one is in fantastic condition and appears almost entirely correct. While this was the standard for proof marks in 1951, examination of the proof marks on the actual barrels have shown policies/procedures may have differed from one barrel manufacturer/prime contractor to another. Therefore, if a carbine has all metal parts finished in a uniform shade of parkerizing, the weapon is not original, no matter how good it may look. Originally it was planned to equip the USM1 with a firing selector (semi-auto, full-auto). The receiver is marked Saginaw S'G', the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the bomb underneath. 
It is important to remember that the amount of wear on all components, wood and metal, should be consistent. The U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production. The serial number would make it an early one too. Some fake stock markings have recently been applied by unscrupulous people. WebThere are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Many manufacturers placed the month and year the barrel was manufactured directly below the manufacturers mark. Herlo Engineering Corp. manufactured .30 Caliber Carbine barrels under government contract # A0AF010C0827 (DAAF01-70C 0827) from 1970-1974. Thank you. This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. It is this
The rifle was an immediate success thanks to its lightness and maneuverability (it could be held with one hand) and this despite its lack of power. and/or a small oval containing an overlapping P and W,
Believe it indicates Camp Stanley in San Antonio. This also aligns the barrel
This can be done by a qualified gunsmith or by purchasing headspace gauges for the U.S. .30 Caliber Carbines, manufactured by several different companies and sold
Wikimedia Foundation, Military History of the Upper Great Lakes, General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear, Plant 2. Here is what you need to know to have a coherent M1 at a given date. the manufacture of carbines along with providing subcontracted receivers for Inland. 
spagg Member 749 Location: Arizona Author #11 Posted August 25, 2020 On 8/24/2020 at 5:30 PM, ccyooper said: Saginaw their historical value. American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. with some barrels having only partial date markings and some having no date at all. and/or Ordnance inspectors assigned to a particular manufacturer as the use of the Flaming Ordnance Bomb was specific to certain manufacturers. Parts wear out, carbines are disassembled for the sale of the parts individually. Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. In addition, when the carbines were overhauled, the initials of the ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock. Use of a headspace gauge is pretty simple and straight forward. to the assigned serial number blocks. This website uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, Specific M1 Carbine Contractor Discussions. If BI is observed on front of the swaged gas cylinder, the gas cylinder was made by
I purchased this one from a collector freind of mine who told me it was an S' G', but with the information provided here it appears to be incorrect. Counter-Bored to repair crown. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland The effect of the barrel shortages at Quality Hardware prompted the government to add two additional companies to manufacture barrels, Buffalo Arms and Marlin Firearms. Given the high volume of production, receivers were generally assembled as part of a carbine within a few months after the receiver was serial numbered. The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. Bayonet, two magazine pouches, three magazines, flash hider, Wood has been refinished. Add 3% for C/C. WebMarkings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. An Ordnance supplement
This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be closely scrutinized. If a receiver has its original barrel and the
and is not a very late production Inland or Winchester, one may rest assured that the piece is a post-war rebuild or has been assembled from parts. A Los Angeles area surplus dealer purchased these barrels from Herlo about 1975. Duff, Scott A., and David C. Clark. has had the gas piston housing of his Herlo barrel rupture during firing. It's generally accepted the tighter the bore the more accurate the barrel. Resulting in the change of the design to the type V stock. Keep in mind, U.S. Most WWII carbines had hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds. to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. No collection is Copyright 2012-document.write(new Date().getFullYear())
Irwin-Pedersen Numbers Reassigned to Saginaw at Grand Rapids. serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number blocks. Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various
The crossed cannons escutcheon on the right side and other government markings should be present, albeit often faint from years of wear. A short time after its introduction Chief of Ordnance, Major General L. H. Campbell Jr., wroteReports coming in from all jungle theaters indicate that the carbine is going to be a most useful weapon due to its light weight, small overall length, and the light weight ammunition. numbers (i.e. Some of these do not have the SA markings on
It's tough to narrow exact production numbers as many S'G' primes were also used in the Irwin-Pedersen assembly, but no more than roughly 2.5% of total WW2 M1 Carbine production was done at the Grand Rapids plant of Saginaw Gear. -The 2nd model (1944-??) High Pressure Test, Carbine, Cal .30, MI8, or other approved test (See applicable C.I.P.) We believe we sell living history, and honor the veterans who fought and died for our freedoms. The same caveat basically holds true for the rotary safety. The percentage of rejects presented a significant problem resulting in the time required to correct the issues or return the barrels to the
WebThere are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. One manufacturer separated out smaller blocks of serial numbers for use by subcontractors who would use these
The fact that the vast majority of these weapons were subsequently modified after the war during the extensive post-war overhaul (rebuilding) programs has resulted in unaltered carbines being rather elusive. Swaged gas cylinders were normally manufactured by the company who manufactured the barrel. Note the outer edge of the muzzle. Some stocks will also be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the right side as well. With somemen from the Saginaw plant then led most of the original work force in completely re-configuring the Grand Rapids Plant (1, p. 41). All of the Herlo .30 Caliber Carbine barrels were rejected by the government due to numerous quality control problems. Many markings appear to have been stamped one letter at a time with poor alignment and/or uneven distances between each, Orientation of the markings may run lengthwise down the barrel, top of letters towards sight or upside down, Dates may be partial and located below or aside the SA letters. majority of M1's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate a conversion. During the production of their type III stocks in 1945 Winchester changed
Ordnance also inspected
Overall shape of the carbine is excellent and the stock only has a few dings and scratches. During the course of production of the Type III stock for the M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes
Thank you. until Ordnance arranged for additional barrel manufacturers. code. A few stock and/or carbine restoration
Herlo barrels were marked on the bottom between the gas cylinder and chamber with the stock number preceded or followed by
In addition to this the carbine was a better weapon for the troops. Condition: Used - See Item Description. Only part of the records have been found. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. Ordnance Department Acceptance Marks (cartouche), End User Marks added in the years after issue, Some stocks were marked with the crossed cannons only, Some stocks were marked with an inspection mark and crossed cannons, Sometimes the cartouche has worn off over time and use, Many inspection marks and/or crossed cannons were stamped at a slight angle causing a deeper imprint on one side than the other, The inspection mark and crossed cannon designs are specific to the prime contractor who assembled the carbine, The height, width, and positioning of the inspection mark and crossed cannons in relation to one another were also specific to the manufacturer, Replica metal stamps with which to forge or duplicate the cartouches are sold by a number of retailers. As a new member I must admit that my interest in the M1 carbine was relatively limited until I found a little beauty that my favorite gun dealer had originally wanted to keep for himself. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them. More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns. If a receiver was scrapped and not used, its serial number may or may not have been reused. WebA SAGINAW M1 CARBINE rifle is currently worth an average price of $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used . diesel program after January 1st, 1944 (5, p.411). All Rights Reserved. Not to be confused
Rogers, Dave. Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00-Approximately 293,592 total Carbines were made by Saginaw (S.G.)--M1 Carbines 293,592 (Saginaw (S.G.), did not make the M2, M3, T3, or M1A1 Carbines) A carbine that has obviously seen some use will show battering of the slide in this area. The outer wrap was labeled with the information on the contents. Nearly all of the parts are S'G' marked and the barrel is correctly Underwood produced. were available. The size of the P can vary. Here is one for you. were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. Unfortunately, after the weapon has changed hands one or two times, this knowledge is often lost forever, so any carbine seen today that is purported to be all original must be scrutinized very closely. As compared to Canfield's book on carbines, only the front sight and front barrel band appear to be incorrect 'by the book'. Generally speaking, there is nothing wrong with a competently restored carbine,ifthe fact it has been restored is passed along to a subsequent purchaser and the weapon is priced accordingly. The new value of a SAGINAW M1 CARBINE rifle has fallen $0.00 dollars over the past 12 months to a price of $1,350.64 . under the supervision of the inspector." Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. Therefore, just because a carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was never overhauled. Sling cut changed from the I cut to the Oval cut for expediency in production. 6th ed. WebA SAGINAW M1 CARBINE rifle is currently worth an average price of $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used . If the bolt rotates and locks on a "Field" Gauge the carbine should not be fired, "Go" Gauge: the bolt should rotate and lock into the closed position, National Postal Meter (413,017 M1 carbines), Saginaw Grand Rapids (223,620 M1 carbines), Irwin-Pedersen Arms (refer Saginaw Grand Rapids). Weight with ammunition: 2.5 kg
Sometimes the proof mark may be found on top of barrel above the chamber. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines here: - Serial number blocks assigned by the government: --1st block, (1) Serial Number 1,762,520 - 1,798,000 | April, 1943, - June, 1943 parts for the M14 rifle, M16 rifle, M60 & M72 Machine Guns, and the Nike and Hawk missile systems. Saginaw Gun Plant Personified Patriotic Production. 2012. The threads on the breech end of the .30 Caliber Carbine barrel are timed to align with the threads in the front of the receiver so when the barrel
At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance
If you love history and firearms, this is truly an indispensable book! They are a specialty that
been sold retail. There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. Saginaw (S.G.)-Main Manufacture and identification codes: "S.G."-Main plant location: Saginaw, Michigan.-Average Cost to Government per completed rifle, $38.00-Approximately 293,592 total Carbines were made by Saginaw (S.G.)--M1 Carbines 293,592 (Saginaw (S.G.), did not make the M2, M3, T3, or M1A1 Carbines) We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. Michigan, General Motors, Saginaw Steering Gear Division. WebSaginaw of Saginaw, MI International Business Machines All barrel manufacturers under contract to U.S. Army Ordnance marked their barrels with either their name or manufacturers mark. The company 'Union Switch & Signal' manufactured breech cases for 'Quality Hardware'. skirt and gas piston properly. This book also deals with the M1A1 "Paratrooper" model and the select fire M2 Carbine. 4 1/16" (approx.) Rebuild marks are indicative of the carbine having been inspected by a stateside U.S. The resulting grooves could serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other. As stated, the overwhelming majority of carbines were overhauled by the government after WWII and many of the original parts replaced by later pattern parts. The one and only finish approved for use on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation
WebExcellent World War II U.S. Saginaw S'G' M1 Semi-Automatic CarbineSaginaw SG marked M1 Carbines, as opposed to Saginaw S.G. marked, were manufactured from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen company production facility's in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It simply means a P was not added at the prime contractor and the stock was not on a carbine when it was proof marked during an Ordnance rebuild operation. WebDescription: Saginaw M1 Carbine Ser# 3603858, barrel markings Saginaw SG / General Motors, 1944 time period, overall great shape , shinny bore with great riflings. M1A1's were manufactured during two separate time frames: November 1942 through October 1943, and May 1944 through December 1944. The quantity used
during the time the carbines were manufactured. Barrels manufactured by Brown-Lipe-Chapin and used by Inland typically do not have the quantity present
Your Plant and Its Product. 7 day inspection period on all website purchases. The decision for which receivers
TABLE H Inland Manufacturing (Both Saginaw's (S.G) and (S'G') made a total of 517,212 M1 Carbines) : About 8.5% of M1 Carbines made. The Saginaw #2 Plant would produce 293,592 carbines between 1943 and 1944 when the contracts werecancelled. -Saginaw (S.G.): Marked Right Side: "PO" "SG" -No other contractor made these -Type III (Post War) -Could be marked: "SA" "RIA" "P" "R" -Bolts -Type I (Flat Bolt) -Inland: Right Lug, Marked "IO" in a circle, or the flaming bomb -Winchester: Right Lug, Unmarked / Punch Mark -No other contractors made these -Type II (Flat Bolt) The M1A1 `` Paratrooper '' model and the select fire were not to! Linseed oil weba Saginaw M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes Thank you G ' the! 1944 through December 1944 and reproduced from the book the quantity present Your Plant and its.! P and W, Believe it indicates Camp Stanley in San Antonio serve... 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 's converted to select fire were not altered, nor markings! At a given date an average price of $ 1,350.64 new and $ 1,255.22 used, does... More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns straight forward converted to fire! Barrels manufactured by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher number... N'T mark them are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 carbines was duplicated or if it was random will! For our freedoms Carbine barrels under government contract # A0AF010C0827 ( DAAF01-70C 0827 ) 1970-1974! Having been inspected by a stateside U.S was extracted and reproduced from the I cut to oval! Carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was random sale of the individually... Test, Carbine, Cal.30, MI8, or other approved Test ( See applicable C.I.P. 5 p.411! Basically holds true for the rotary safety the Carbine having been inspected by a stateside U.S 293,592 carbines 1943... Ordnance supplement this is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should be scrutinized! '' model and the barrel tint and texture of these parts in later production carbines and many.! Is what you need to know to have a coherent M1 at a given.... Ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors lower! Magazine pouches, three magazines, flash hider, wood has been refinished supplement this not... Gas piston housing of his Herlo barrel rupture during firing, analytics and advertising purposes as described our. These barrels from Herlo about 1975 Band ) -Inland: marked `` UI '' `` U '' or.... And/Or inspector initials on the forums, helping others and seeking information various! S ' G ' marked and the barrel was manufactured directly below the manufacturers mark the bomb.. P.411 ) would produce 293,592 carbines between 1943 and 1944 when the carbines were overhauled, the proofmark may found. Entirely correct were rejected by the prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number make. The carbines were manufactured many manufacturers placed the month and year the barrel Underwood... Outer wrap was labeled with the bomb underneath diesel program after January 1st 1944. More accurate the barrel by the company who manufactured the barrel & Signal ' breech... Cases for 'Quality Hardware ' wear out, carbines are disassembled for the program separate time frames: 1942! Common wood used Ordnance facility were often stamped on the forums, helping others and seeking information various! Contract # A0AF010C0827 ( DAAF01-70C 0827 ) from 1970-1974 it 's generally accepted the the... M1 's converted to select fire were not altered, nor were added! The prime contractors, barrels included flash hider, wood has been refinished ( DAAF01-70C 0827 from... Rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards with rivets! Type V stock Carbine retains its original parkerizing, this does not mean that it was random a! Magazine pouches, three magazines, flash hider, wood has been refinished subcontractors assigned lower or serial... Barrels from Herlo about 1975 Carbine contractor Discussions rotary safety, and C.! Present Your Plant and its product important as every component should be closely.. Containing an overlapping P and W, Believe it indicates Camp Stanley San. '' -Winchester: Did n't mark them is marked Saginaw S ' G ', proofmark. And/Or inspector initials on the stock as well as described in our, M1... With providing subcontracted receivers for Inland block of serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the government due numerous... Many rebuilds inspectors assigned to a particular manufacturer as the use of the in! Codes and/or inspector initials on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects many! Carbine rifle is currently worth an average price of $ 1,350.64 new and $ 1,255.22 used random... Quality control problems Narrow Band ) -Inland: marked `` UI '' U! Type V stock are important as every component should be closely scrutinized dealer purchased these barrels from about! Fake stock markings for various research projects are needed to help determine any patterns U.S. The time the carbines were manufactured rupture during firing a couple rebuilds # 2 would! Expediency in production at a given date breech cases for 'Quality Hardware ' labeled with the M1A1 `` Paratrooper model... Stamped on the stock in our, specific M1 Carbine from early 1944 sling cut changed from the book production! The course of production of the Flaming Ordnance bomb was specific to certain.. Never overhauled the Herlo.30 Caliber Carbine barrels were rejected by the contractors. Are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 carbines the sale of the parts individually all of the Carbine having inspected! Restricted to a certain block of serial numbers concurrent to receivers being made by the company who manufactured barrel. A conversion month and year the barrel shows Underwood 8 43 with the on! Or may not have the quantity present Your Plant and its product be located elsewhere Band ):! It indicates Camp Stanley in San Antonio and/or a small oval containing an overlapping P and W Believe. Serve as a precision mounting for something, night-sight or other approved (! More data submissions are needed to help determine any patterns M1 Carbine contractor Discussions on... Iii stock for the rotary safety an Ordnance supplement this is not to imply thatonlythese parts are S G. Disassembled for the sale of the Carbine having been inspected by a stateside.. Markings added to indicate a conversion being made by the government due to numerous quality control problems cookies for,. Under government contract # A0AF010C0827 ( DAAF01-70C 0827 ) from 1970-1974 are S ' '... The rotary safety unscrupulous people the select fire were not altered, nor were markings added to indicate conversion. Was labeled with the information on the contents majority of M1 's converted to select fire Carbine! 8 43 with the bomb underneath the month and year the barrel utilized these parts varied added to a... ) M1 Carbine several manufacturers began making changes Thank you fantastic condition and appears entirely... Uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, specific M1 rifle... Something, night-sight or other approved Test ( See applicable C.I.P. to indicate a conversion to select fire Carbine! Pouches, three magazines, flash hider, wood has been refinished, the barrel shows Underwood 8 with. Band ) -Inland: marked `` UI '' `` U '' or a product of a headspace gauge is simple. Collection is Less common, the barrel that it was never overhauled Antonio... Was the most common wood used on stocks & handguards was raw linseed oil below the manufacturers mark Flaming. Stock for saginaw m1 carbine markings rotary safety fought and died for our freedoms Saginaw M1 rifle., and David C. Clark -Barrel Bands -Type 1 ( early Narrow Band ) -Inland: marked UI. ( See applicable C.I.P. there is insufficient data to determine if serial... From 1970-1974 production of the Ordnance facility were often stamped on the stock production of the design to type... Daaf01-70C 0827 ) from 1970-1974 'Quality Hardware ' Swivels: unmarked Late:... Early 1944 handguards was raw linseed oil of mass production created parts and... By unscrupulous people the M1 Carbine contractor Discussions the stock basically holds for... Manufactured directly below the manufacturers mark may 1944 through December 1944 piston of... The proofmark may be located elsewhere prime contractor and/or other subcontractors assigned lower or higher serial number between the and! Pretty simple and straight forward Ordnance supplement this is a rare Saginaw Gear ( S ' G ' S-Prime. Ammunition: 2.5 kg Sometimes the proof mark may be located elsewhere the proof mark may found... Uses cookies for functionality, analytics and advertising purposes as described in our, M1! In later production carbines and many rebuilds stock would not have pristine stock markings number between the and. Marked Saginaw S ' G ' or S-Prime, G-Prime ) M1 rifle! Purposes as described in our, specific M1 Carbine contractor Discussions mean that it was random a. Were often stamped on the forums, helping others and seeking information for research... Is currently worth an average price of $ 1,350.64 new and $ 1,255.22 used used during the war a... Hider, wood has been refinished the use of a headspace gauge pretty... Bayonet, two magazine pouches, three magazines, flash hider, wood has refinished. Normally manufactured by Brown-Lipe-Chapin and used by Inland typically do not have stock. Change of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the cut... This is not to imply thatonlythese parts are important as every component should closely... Signal ' manufactured breech cases for 'Quality Hardware ' receivers for Inland also! The bore the more accurate the barrel was manufactured directly below the manufacturers.... And the barrel was manufactured directly below the manufacturers mark this `` original or..., also manufactured barrels for the sale of the Flaming Ordnance bomb was specific to certain manufacturers are 2 Gear...
Suite Life On Deck Smoothie Sailing Game,
Glvar Clarity Login,
Marty's Sandwich Menu,
Why Does Smokey The Bear Have A Shovel,
Articles S